v17 or v16.6?

Hi everyone, this is my initial Beta feedback on XG v17 Beta-1. A bit of background first to put some context into some of my comments, I have been working with the XG since the early Copernicus versions in August 2015 and have been aligned very closely with it ever since. I was the first XG architect in the UK due to happenstance and have been installing at least two XGs a week since January 2016. At some points up until v16.5 I felt like (and it was commented on by Sophos) that I was the only person in the UK who actually liked the XG/SFOS and could see how interesting and big it could become. I was extremely pleased with v16 and v16.5, they provided a massive leap in functionality and really cleared up some glaring issues with v15 that I won’t highlight upon too much because I’ve burnt those memories out of my brain.

I’ve spent quite a bit of time with v17 beta, I’ve gone through all of the options and comparing them to v16.5, comparing them to a list of issues I was asked for and sent into Sophos for consideration. On top of this I bore in mind the consistent “wait for v17” that I was told about many problems in usability and functionality that I encountered both in my personal findings and while I was committing installs for Customers. V17 had been promised as “Feature Parity Plus” whereas v16.5 was (a shaky) “Feature Parity” so just by that moniker alone our organisation was excited to work with it.

However, after looking through this Beta 1, and considering that the GA release is coming in the next few weeks, v17 is actually feeling like v16.6. I don’t want to make such a miserable comment such as that as I don’t want to insult the good people in Sophos working on this project however since v16.5 there have been no major feature additions and the actual release of v17 was pushed back from May/June of this year to end of August/September and now October. So that is a phenomenal length of development time with the very large team that have come from Cyberoam.

I appreciate that a lot of v17 was focused on coding improvements to clean it up and increase performance but the XG already performed well in SMBs (its target until v18) and it appears the multitude of gripes and missing features from the UTM Feature Parity that lead to big problems have not been focused on.

So, enough exposition I suppose I had better put some solid to my claims above:

  • High Availability Preferred Master – A substantial number of customers need this feature because they stretch their HA pairs across a business link to their DR site. The XG is a complete nonstarter without this for at least 3 of our major customers. This isn’t a particularly hard issue to resolve either, the XG currently Master checks if its Serial is the one that was check boxed as the Preferred Master, if it isn’t then it performs a failover by reboot. Why was this not a consideration for v17? HA was promised to have a large improvement
  • Email filtering on the XG is a sub-par feature – It was promised that XG v17 would literally have the functionality of the Email Appliance lifted and dropped into the XG as a straight replacement. Right now I cannot in good conscience sell the XG as an Email filter because it cannot perform basic core functions like Blacklisting and a granular Whitelist. These missing elements alone kill the XG as an email filter and right now we are selling XG appliances and a 10IP UTM license with just Email Protection if the Customer wants to continue. That is a fundamental failure. If the Customer does not have the ability to actively block incoming email domains then they cannot protect themselves against legitimate senders that have been infected. Granted we now have Greylisting but where’s SPF/BATV checking and Expression Filtering? These are little things that add up to a big a problem for a Customer when comparing solutions leading to a lost sale
  • Reports look good but missing key features – The reports look fantastic and are exceptional when you’re doing pre-sales but when you get into the meat of the matter they can actually be somewhat useless. I cannot make a report for blocked websites with detail of when it happened and who tried to go to it. These reports can only be done via the pie-chart reports which are great for general overview but useless for granularity. Application filtering, I cannot create a report for blocked apps and when they were blocked to try and track any outbreaks and issues or even just to diagnose a problem app. The reports system needs to have a good hard look at it to establish what is missing. V17 was touted as having a large improvement to reporting
  • Reports can only be done on a single User – In the UK (for those that don’t know) we have the Prevent legislations which for educational and government bodies all web access needs to be recorded and certain categories must be blocked. These categories also need to be tracked for access in education so that Child Protection Officers can reach out to a minor who could be vulnerable and help them. The UTM has the great feature of generating reports for specific departments (groups of users) and sending that report to a specific person/group of people. This is perfect for education because there are generally Child Protection Officers for specific years or groups of students and allows Schools to perform their requirements by the regulating bodies with ease and little pain. The XG has nothing anywhere near this and with the addition of Search term groupings this feature is even more important to the massive education sector. Again, something said as to look out for v17. It can do groups on the Custom reports but it is only on the Firewall Group Members not AD Group members, everywhere else cannot be filtered on a group. If this can be done then a certain competitor in the education sector will be shotgunned in the kneecaps
  • Mass importing and exporting lists – In the UTM, everywhere that you can enter in multiple lines of data (Exceptions, URL lists etc.) there is an import and export function that makes filling in the data a 5 second job. Some Customers have exceptionally large lists of URLs or lines of data to enter in on migration or throughout the usage of the appliance. For instance on my installs, if the customer is using Office 365 I have a list of Regular Expressions I have created from Microsoft URL Lists that I enter to prevent issues with Office 365. There’s 90 lines I have to manually copy and paste wasting Customer time and money. It looks unprofessional and it is always commented on and I’m running out of jokes about it. Simple thing that a single engineer should be able to jump on?
  • DHCP Options are still problematic via CLI – DHCP Option requirements are becoming asked for quite consistently on my installations and pre-sales and this is due to Terminal Services and Citrix environments. An example of this are the use of IGEL appliances which are thin clients that use DHCP option codes to provide the Citrix Receive target information. That’s a feature gap and can put the XG in a bad light when selling to a multi-site Citrix environment. Thin Clients and Terminal Services/Citrix environments are not going to go away and in a lot of verticals are only going to get bigger.
  • Captive Portal is still IP based – This is a big problem for Environments where they want to use a browser based authentication system without the ability to deploy a trusted certificate. You cannot purchase publicly trusted certs for IP addresses so therefore it’s unsuitable to use an HTTPS portal because of the difficulties arising from HSTS and help desk issues causing an increase in tickets regarding untrusted websites. The UTM got around this by having a Certificate for End User Pages so why is there not a similar system in the XG. I appreciate and understand that the Captive Portal is bound to each interfaces IP address and that is how the re-direct occurs but maybe there needs to be something halfway to allow this functionality. And we absolutely cannot use an HTTP portal due to security implications. Some customers are moving to Google environments using Chromebooks, hard sell if there are permanent issues
  • SSL VPN port cannot be changed – Unprofessional and ridiculous, I have found all the files pertaining to the Open VPN configuration and cannot even change them there. When I go to certain hotels or customers sites I cannot VPN to work, I cannot do my job if I cannot get enough signal to hotspot my phone. Again, a feature promised for v17 and let down
  • Traffic shaping is only designed for a single internet connection – Can only configure a single figure for maximum available bandwidth and not a figure per interface. If the Customer has multiple links in Backup/Active configuration then any shaping cannot be trusted as the figure will be distorted by multiple links, especially in a backup link configuration if it is a slower link
  • Drag and Drop system for Firewall rules – I dread large installs with over 50 Firewall rules if one must be moved. Drag and Drop is “Next Generation” but is impractical and would be better alongside a numerical ordering system. I did an install where I migrated and compressed over 400 FW rules into about 120, then I had to move one…
  • XG is using KiloBytes as a metric – Who made this decision and why considering 90% of all other systems using (kilo)bits? Impractical and ridiculous having to tell a customer that for all of their other bandwidth metrics they will have to divide them by eight. It’s not a big ask but it has caused several problems migrating and in usage
  • Interfaces still perma switched on - If you wanted to create an interface, you must do it as you are about to use it which is dangerous. This is down to if you are preparing for a switchover and are migrating subnets over gradually you cannot define it’s connection on an interface ready for switchover and have static routes in place for the existing setup. This would create anomalous activity. On the UTM, if you had an interface switched off it practically didn’t exist in the routing system, in the XG all interfaces are active regardless of what has been set up.

Some of these are little gripes that consistently come up install to install but some of them are very large especially HA, Email and Reporting. I guess I may have been riding the hype train like a Fremen worm riding Shai-Hulud on Arrakis (may his passing cleanse the world) and therefore seeing so many promises not happening has really deflated me for v17.

Application sync is fantastic and is a launchpad for some amazing things in the XG and Central providing an insight that exactly 0% of competitors can do to the same level. But having one big awesome feature does not make up for so many smaller missing ones. It’s like a death by a thousand cuts for me. I’m going to be coming back from paternity and continuing doing at least 2 XG installs a week and instead of saying “wait and see for v17” I’m going to be saying “wait and see for v17.5”. The major two areas so far which have been resolved (thank the lord) are Business Application rules being Service based rather than text based and Logging retaining data. However I will hold out judgement on logging retaining data because it was omitted from Beta1 as it wasn’t ready so I will try to keep faith.

We could be losing Customers over features like High Availability missing key elements of its functionality from the UTM. Because the UTM and XG are still not feature parity, we still have reasons to sell the UTM which definitely did not want to do. The UTM is a fantastic product, my father has been installing Astaro since v4 but it is far too mature and needs to be replaced by the new kid on the block. Sadly, it feels like we potentially have another year of the UTM being relevant unless v17.5 kills it off.

Considering that these a vast majority split of development between XG and SG UTM, the number of features that have been included on XG and idea/requests fulfilled are almost the same. Which is a little difficult to work with in my head having experienced development and man hours being applied in programming/testing.

Everything I have said above is a reflection of my personal opinion and I wanted to share it with the community to gather thoughts on what I’ve said and for people to present their own thoughts on the above.

Parents
  • Wow  don't hold back[:D] What saddens me about your post is that you were one of the biggest cheerleaders of XG. I had such high hopes for v16 that I was full in for XG till the beta. V15 was so lacking that comparatively v16 was awesome but all the basics that you are laying out have been missing since v15. I don't want  to come out and once again lay out the vision and the sales numbers but I agree with your completely.

     I cannot understand why it requires so many man hours /years to

    Allow vpn daemon to listen on any port chosen by the administrator.

    Rename a port WAN or Internet instead of Port5

    Real live logs like UTM has had since v4 when I first started using it that would give you all the information without overloading you with junk info like XG does if you are brave enough to fire up the cli.

    Why don't we have actual bandwidth monitoring in kb/s on the dashboard instead of traffic insight which is useless if your WAN is choked?

    Look at the bug reports on smarthost feature in the current beta. The logs in the gui don't give you any information if your mail fails for any reason and looking at awarrenmta.log is like trying to figure out the design of wall of china. I don't even dare to test the MTA for incoming email in my home lab[:#]

    Country blocking which has been broken forever is still broken for incoming connections.

    Deny all applications and allow a few didn't work forever so now they have taken that out of the gui.

    Qos is great for small single wan deployments but even with small usage home use, I have a hard time throttling users and then throttling applications for those users without writing multiple firewall rules (maybe I need more practice but UTM seemed so intuitive)

    I can QoS Netflix using UTM by using throttle application Netflix. With XG, you can throttle netflix website but not netflix stream? Why are we going backward?

    Also completely agree with you on the underlying Allow ALL functionality which makes everything live as soon as you add it to the system. I actually had a bug report about this since I was not aware of this feature.

    I was helping a friend decide between sophos and the usual competitors... the price point for sophos devices is so attractive that people give up on the fish and the california town named devices and hope that XG will fix the minor things in the NEXT incoming release[:'(]

    Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of good about XG and it can move a lot of traffic but the basics that you have laid out in your post seem so trivial to include in XG that I can't understand why it takes so long to incorporate them. I have written many times about the development headaches at sophos headquarters due to the slow pace of development. Like you said, they have top notch ideas, only if they could incorporate the basics of UTM into next gen capabilities of XG...

  • Hey BillyBob, I think I'm still cheerleading the XG! But when v17 beta finally dropped and I threw it on my labs I spent 30 minutes going through all the subsystems, closed it down and focused on my daughters who have just come home for a few days and tried not to think about it, ha ha. My disappointment was so strong I finally was able to shut down from work!

    As time has gone on I've looked into it more and more and my current opinion still has not changed. When v16 came out, it was so strong and stable that I even contacted the PSUK team in Sophos and asked that any installs I do for them, would they be happy if it were on v16 beta and I was installing all customers on a Beta system because it was that much better. I guess I expected the same of v16->v17. 

    I am aware of many hangups that have occurred regarding development in India but I was under the impression they were resolved in the first quarter of this year, this still leaves 6 months of strong development time to do the big and the small.

    Another thing that has frustrated me actually, nearly all of the daemon logs either do not have a date stamp, it's wrong or it's in epoch time...really?

    There is a beautiful vision of the XG and I still see it, but it's the now that is causing me pain :P

    I would love to discuss my thoughts with  as we had an incredibly positive discussion at the Lisbon conference but I wouldn't blame him if he has nightmares about me jumping out of shadows!

    Emile

Reply
  • Hey BillyBob, I think I'm still cheerleading the XG! But when v17 beta finally dropped and I threw it on my labs I spent 30 minutes going through all the subsystems, closed it down and focused on my daughters who have just come home for a few days and tried not to think about it, ha ha. My disappointment was so strong I finally was able to shut down from work!

    As time has gone on I've looked into it more and more and my current opinion still has not changed. When v16 came out, it was so strong and stable that I even contacted the PSUK team in Sophos and asked that any installs I do for them, would they be happy if it were on v16 beta and I was installing all customers on a Beta system because it was that much better. I guess I expected the same of v16->v17. 

    I am aware of many hangups that have occurred regarding development in India but I was under the impression they were resolved in the first quarter of this year, this still leaves 6 months of strong development time to do the big and the small.

    Another thing that has frustrated me actually, nearly all of the daemon logs either do not have a date stamp, it's wrong or it's in epoch time...really?

    There is a beautiful vision of the XG and I still see it, but it's the now that is causing me pain :P

    I would love to discuss my thoughts with  as we had an incredibly positive discussion at the Lisbon conference but I wouldn't blame him if he has nightmares about me jumping out of shadows!

    Emile

Children
  • There are legitimate people in the forum like lferrara, Billybob and Emilie who commit their time to help other people solve problems and give advice / feedback to Sophos to improve the product.

    I am myself a frequent visitor to this forum and I learn a lot from posts!

    However, I would not like the good performance of XG sales to discourage development work or not to give importance to the "architects" complaints that sell / install Sophos XG to their customers.

    Sophos (at least here in Italy) is pushing partners to propose XG to end customers but XG is not at same level of UTM!; on the other hand, “Architects” eventually complain about features that are missing or are not up to UTM compared to UTM..

    It's serious by Sophos, there are no attenuating!

    It is also true that the various partners who feel "obliged" to switch to XG require at least the same characteristics as are present in UTM, and it is normal that there are high expectations (and fortunately there are!)

    I am also aware that putting together two workgroups one coming from Cyberoam and one coming from Sophs is not a small thing… but it has also been a long time since Sophos acquires Cyberoam (02/2014).

    I just hope that criticisms are taken as "constructive" to leverage and increase Sophos's commitment to develop a complete "Security Firewall OS".